Transcript of Show:
Peter Mumford: Good morning. Welcome to The Fairways Show. My co-host this morning is Jason Fairfield from Oncor Solutions. Morning, Jay, how’s everything going?
Jason Fairfield: Good, how are you?
Peter Mumford: I’m doing well. I’m excited about today’s show because we’ve got one of Canada’s best known golf coaches and most accomplished golf instructors, Doug Lawrie. Doug’s won awards from the PGA of Ontario and the PGA of Canada and is particularly well known for his work with Junior Golfers.
Peter Mumford: Good morning, Doug, welcome to the show.
Doug Lawrie: Good morning, Peter. Good morning, Jay. Thanks for having me on. I’m looking forward to this.
Jason Fairfield: I think we left off a few credentials as well. U.S. Junior.
Peter Mumford: All kinds of them. I think we’ll get to them. One of the things that Jay and I talked about before the show got started this morning was we’ve got a guest who’s never stuck for an answer. We’re just going to give you a couple of hints, Doug, and let you go with it. But I’ll kick things off this morning by asking you how are you handling things in terms of coaching with everybody in lockdown mode, shut down at home and so on?
Doug Lawrie: It’s been a very interesting rejig, I would say. It’s how you change your perception and fortunately enough, I think that this has given me some opportunities to expand on the online coaching side of things because Zoom has really allowed you to do a lot of really cool things. I’m averaging around three to four online lessons a day with my kids. I coached somewhere between 20 to 25 kids and pretty consistently.
Doug Lawrie: The one thing in this last five weeks that I’ve tried to do is I’ve tried to reach out to every single kid that I coach. Whether I’m having a lesson with them or not, it’s important to have that connection and to reach out because they’re scared. Their anxiety is through the roof. They don’t know what’s going on.
Doug Lawrie: Some are nonplussed about it. Some are bored, but just to say, “Hey, what’s going on? What are you doing differently?” And try to give them a little bit of structure is helpful because whether or not they do it, it’s up to them. But again, it’s trying to stay connected and showing them that, “Hey, coach is here. Coach cares. Even if we don’t talk golf, let’s connect.”
Peter Mumford: Great. Do you do Zoom calls or do they send in video? I see all kinds of things online. Even the PGA pros are videotaping their swings and sending it to their coach and I guess they get feedback that way. [crosstalk 00:02:52].
Doug Lawrie: Yeah. It’s a combination of both. We’ll do some Zoom calls where… The really cool part about a Zoom call is I can have it on my computer as we’re doing this today and I can bring up my phone and as they’re swinging, because I get them to set up their phone in the right way or their parent hold the phone, and I can sit and record on my computer their swings and I can take a look at it in my app and I can bring them close to their phone and then show them, “Okay, well let’s try and feel this.” I’m in my basement here in my finished rec room and I can actually do some demonstration of drills or different things for them to work on.
Doug Lawrie: It’s just different. I would say that there’s nothing that replaces being right there with the student but yes. You know what? I’ve had people send me swings. I’ve had people send me… Do Zoom calls but it’s being able to take a look, offer recommendation, and send it back to them quickly and easily but I find it’s really seamless and it’s been good to stay busy because Doug needs to stay busy.
Peter Mumford: I suppose the kids are like everybody else. They’re getting antsy to actually get outside and hit a real golf ball.
Doug Lawrie: It was really interesting because this whole thing went down two days prior to me flying to Florida with 13 kids for March Break program. It was really interesting point because before everything got shut down by Doug Ford, those kids who didn’t go, I’d say, about eight of them and myself, we actually went to Burlington Springs out here in Burlington and they came from Markham and from Guelph and Toronto and stuff and we kept our social distance. We didn’t high five. We didn’t touch the pin but we played three times in that March Break and the kids… It was like… You could see that they just wanted to get out on the golf course.
Doug Lawrie: Now as things are even getting warmer, they’re all going out of their minds. It’s how do they balance and of course, you’ve got them trying to look at school for the mornings. Some of them have to actually do schoolwork. Some actually are very busy with their schoolwork and homework and on the other half, they’re trying to fit in a practice.
Doug Lawrie: It’s trying to just keep them motivated. I designed a little stay home practice regimen for my kids that I sent to them to say, “Hey, you can work on some different things if you have the opportunity.” And then, you know what? It’s just like I said. Keeping that connection and trying to schedule regular things to make sure that they’re ready when they come out of this because they’re sitting and they’re going, “When are we going? When are we going?” They’re on the edge of their seats.
Doug Lawrie: The other thing that they have to deal with is that the kids that are playing tournaments, most of their tournament season is canceled till the end of July.
Doug Lawrie: For some kids who are grade 11, this is a big year for getting looks from schools and colleges. I’ve had chats with this one woman. Brandi Jackson is a great recruiter and we were getting some strategies on what to do with yourself. It’s like coming up with ideas of like, “Hey, coach, this is a day in the life of me what I’m doing, working out at school, making food prep, and then doing some putting, chipping, and full swing.”
Doug Lawrie: There’s a bunch of different strategies. It’s just a different set of strategies.
Peter Mumford: Okay.
Jason Fairfield: Doug, are you hearing from the parents of the juniors that number one, expected from you, two, step up and help out where you can whether indoors? Or are you having separate conversations with the parents about something to do? As we know, parents could get a little [crosstalk 00:06:45].
Doug Lawrie: That’s a great question because you know what? You would think some of them would say, “Can you do something with the kid and all this stuff?” I’m pretty motivated to get in touch with all the kids myself because I want them to be able to feel they’re a little bit more independent. I really think that there is such a fine line. Some parents may… I’ve had a couple of parents reach out and say, “Listen, if there’s anything that you can have Sophia do…” because this one parent, they have a four-yard chipping green in their backyard. He’s like, “Can you design a short game drills for her?” And I was like, “Sure, of course.”
Doug Lawrie: It’s really been interesting because a lot of these kids are self motivated because they can’t just sit there and sit on the couch. I really think that it’s important as a coach to reach out to your players because coaching is about the relationships. It’s way deeper than the X’s and O’s and the connecting the dots and the lines of putting a golf swing together. It’s the relationships that you build with these kids that when they get through this on the other side, you’re still going to be there.
Doug Lawrie: I really think that the parents are so busy trying to figure out what they’re going to do. I think I’ve taken on the brunt of the most of it but I do get the odd person saying, “If you got something for my kid…”
Jason Fairfield: One thing obviously, you and I talk all the time, but notice that you’ve taken it upon yourself to go, ” I got X amount of time in the day,” where you normally would be teaching and you’re like, “What can I do to A, help out the community of coaches?” I’m going to call it that. How do I help connect the coaches together in same thing? Or give some value to some parents or some juniors?
Jason Fairfield: I know you’ve been talking to a bunch of different guys using Zoom to talk. What’s your experience been like that? Again, you’re learning a new skill of… You and I talked yesterday. “What should I be doing here? What should I be doing?” What’s your, “Hey, why do you this?” and what you’ve learned from trying to connect all these people, try to help, again, the juniors, or as you said your industry?
Doug Lawrie: It’s funny. I’ll go with what Pete says where I’m never much at lost for words but I really was thinking about it, “What can I do to help both promote some of my peers, bring in some really cool people that other people and other coaches and other parents may not have the opportunity to actually listen to?”
Doug Lawrie: My network is so vast that merely asking questions and getting them to come on and doing some Instagram lives and some Zoom calls and stuff like that have been really educational for me in that… Kudos to you to pointing me in the direction to watch a couple of people who do it really well in the business of interviewing people.
Doug Lawrie: One of the things I’ve learned is the details and there’s certain things that I like to do. As an example, I’ve had Tristan Mullally, the women’s national team coach and Derek Ingram, the men’s national team coach, both on and the really cool part was is I did a little digging on both of them on to some of their quirkiness and some of the things they’d like or little obsessive about. Like Tristan loves coffee and then Derek Ingram loves Wunderbar because it’s the best chocolate bar made in the world.
Doug Lawrie: The really cool part about it is I’ll set up the questions and lead them through a lot of really cool things and information that I think is pertinent to people who are tuning in. But I think the really cool part is that when I get to some… I call them my fast five. I asked them some random questions that they don’t know what’s coming.
Doug Lawrie: Some of the questions I asked are really creative like what would you do if you were on a deserted island? What three things would you want on this deserted island? Or what’s the title of the movie about your life? Or who’s your hero? Various things. Because what it does, it humanizes everybody. It takes away maybe the little stardom of…
Doug Lawrie: As an example, I had Donovan Bailey on last Friday. You take a little bit away from Donovan the iconic Order of Canada, Olympic champion, and he’s just Donovan Bailey. He’s just chill.
Doug Lawrie: It’s really cool because I’ve gotten a ton of feedback that have allowed me to think, “I think this is something that people really enjoy.” What I want to do for this is I want to move it into a way that people can find it at any time. Have it on my website. Have it under my blog posts. Go watch it. Go read it. See what you like. They’re all going to be up there and transcribed and the really cool part about it is if they want more, if they want me to… I would love to see more suggestions of people that I can interview.
Doug Lawrie: My fingers are crossed. Next week, I’m actually going to do something that’s really cool. I’m going to do a Women in Golf week and all my interviews are going to be with women who are in this industry like Leslie Hawkins with Adidas Canada and then I’m waiting to get confirmation, I should find out today, I may be able to get Suzy Whaley, the president of the PGA of America, who is the first woman president in its history.
Doug Lawrie: Some really cool things. It’s really a lot of fun. I enjoy it. It’s really cool to see the responses that people have been sending me. I think I’m going to keep doing it.
Jason Fairfield: Nice. Very cool. Are you going to try to roll that into… I know we talked a lot of times just about the business of being a junior golf instructor or the business of golf in general. You’re going to try to roll something like what you’re doing into here into part of your overall business offering? I’m trying to think of a better way to say that.
Doug Lawrie: You brought up a really good point because it’s like, “It’s all fine and dandy. I’m interviewing these people, that’s really cool.” But one of the things that I think that I’m finding as I get a little bit more deeper into my coaching career is that a lot of young people… The PGA of Canada does a wonderful job of getting people to understand how to do instruction for beginners and instruction for intermediates and coaching new competitors. It’s a great thing but there’s a lot of things that are missed because they’re talking from a very much a long term player development strand.
Doug Lawrie: I don’t think a lot of coaches know how to set up a business of coaching, how to set up programming for their business to make it work and make it be…. I often say, “Can your juniors finish a program and fall into another one or choose another one? Can you create a roadmap for them so that they can go wherever they want in this game?”
Doug Lawrie: I think that strategy is probably going to help me bring it to the masses, so to speak, similar to my friend, Scott Cowx, who just got certified across the world. I would like to think that that’s a very similar parallel for junior golf. U.S. Kids, Operation 36, Future Links. They’re all great programs and they do a great job of bringing it to people to be certified and basically training.
Doug Lawrie: I think it’s just an opportunity of people understanding how to run a business as a junior golf coach and how to grow it in multiple ways that I think that’s where there’s a bit of an issue.
Doug Lawrie: I don’t think they leverage their network. I don’t think they know how to create connections with other coaches. I think there’s a lot of ego that gets put into this. I think we all have to realize that there’s some really great ways that you can build a great network of coaches and resources that will help your business because it’s like what’s your circle of influence.
Doug Lawrie: I remember you guys used to talk to me about this. What’s the circle of influence and how can you tap into that so that when you put them in the funnel, what comes out is so organically great, you’re able to create revenue from that and then reload it and keep going.
Peter Mumford: The kind of roadmap that you’re creating is a template for anybody to get into it and become a decent coach or does it still start with having either an innate or an instinctive ability to relate to people, understand what their problems are, and find the solutions? I guess it’s the difference between McDonald’s and a high end restaurant. One creates something, the other just follows a formula.
Doug Lawrie: It’s an interesting point you should say that, Peter, because I really think that if you want to be a really great junior golf coach, you need to have a certain personality that lends yourself to be a junior golf coach. Jay, you can nod your head in agreement to this. Most golf pros wear their golf pro hat and don’t take it off and they don’t know outside of their lane of being a golf pro and that’s the problem is that you’re not in so much about teaching golf. It is about creating a person in junior golf.
Doug Lawrie: When you’re coaching a junior, you’re more about the child’s development overall than wins and losses. It’s super important that people understand that and I really think that if you realize that… That’s part of the reason why I invested in becoming a junior golf coach is because A, on a business standpoint, kids want to always be in something and parents typically want their kids to be in a really good program.
Doug Lawrie: It just shows up. If you’re a guy who’s only in it for the money, it comes through in how you execute and how you do it. If you’re in it because you’re doing it from the heart and you generally want these kids to better enjoy it, better people, that also comes through.
Doug Lawrie: I think when parents see that they want to be around that environment… Creating that environment is super important. I don’t think a lot of people know how to do that. I think a lot of people look at it and think, “Oh, I can teach juniors. It’s so easy.” It’s probably one of the hardest jobs around. Sometimes it’s like herding cats.
Doug Lawrie: There’s a bit of an art form and you have to be a pretty good person who’s outgoing, who can communicate with kids, get down to their level, and really make a connection and be relevant. I think a lot of people don’t realize how relevancy to a child, to a seven-year-old, to a five-year-old, to a 10-year-old, to a 12-year-old, is so important. That I think is what separates me from a lot of them and I would love to help share that with others because I really think it’s something that can be…
Doug Lawrie: I guess I could guide people down that way. I think it takes a certain person to be able to grasp it and run with it. But again, it’s the same thing with the funnel. If we get a whole bunch of people that want to try it, you’re going to get the really good organic ones out the bottom of it.
Jason Fairfield: Identically. You said right at the beginning of this call, which was… I’m going to already forgot. You said it’s going to weed people out that don’t want to or they’ll just tire kick basically but the ones that are, as you said about the kids, they step off, they’re self sufficient, they’re the ones that get through that roadmap very quickly on their own. They’re the ones that you don’t have to tell them to do stuff. Same, I think, principles on that.
Jason Fairfield: There’s going to be, you and I talked the other day, 10 golf coaches, you’d have one that’s on the tour, you’re going to have two or three that are going to be when I say your level that type of thing, and then you have the rest of them that are struggling from a business perspective that they’re doing well, they’ve got students, and they don’t have students. I think that’s very reflective as Peter and I can attest to. That’s very respective of business in general.
Jason Fairfield: You’re going to have a standout. You’re going to have three or four that are process driven. They understand it. They’re willing to make mistakes. They’re willing to reinvent themselves. They get it. And then you’re going to have other ones that are just, “What’s the new trick of the day? Oh, Snapchat. Oh, Twitter. Oh, Funnel. Oh, WordPress. Oh…” They absolutely miss the boat of consistency of predictable rules in following those steps and being consistent that way which is weird. I think you find it in coaching in general.
Doug Lawrie: You know what? That’s really interesting point. Yesterday, I got the absolute pleasure of interviewing Alan Stein Jr. who wrote the book called Raise Your Game. He was for 15 years a high performance basketball trainer, who trained some of the best basketball players in the world from Kevin Durant to Chris Paul to Markelle Fultz. He was DeMatha High School strength and conditioning coach for six years in D.C.
Doug Lawrie: The really interesting part about speaking with him and he said this and this is a really great point to what you just said. Kyle Korver and JJ Reddick are hired guns. They know that they are three-point shooters that is what they’ve made their careers on and why they’ve been on as many teams as they have been. They both realized that they’re not going to be a high flyer, they’re not going to be a lockdown defender, they’re not going to be a rebounder, they’re going to be a hired gun to walk onto the court and make threes.
Doug Lawrie: The interesting part about this is they concentrate on what they know they’re really good at and they become the very best at and Alan was talking about that because when you’re self aware of what you know and what you do and you can concentrate on that, you get less distractions.
Doug Lawrie: It’s like when you’re concentrating on a golf course and you’re just worrying about this shot in front of you, you drown out everybody around you, you don’t worry about what your competitors are doing, you don’t worry about what the field might be doing. You don’t worry about what your parents are thinking and you don’t worry about what your coach might be thinking.
Doug Lawrie: All of a sudden, it narrows the field and becomes uber focused almost in the state of flow which they’ve researched. Flow used to be thinking that you were in a flow and you knew it all. No, actually, flow is being as narrow and as uber focus as you possibly can so that everything else blurs and slows down.
Doug Lawrie: The really cool part about this is if you could take that and put it into a coach who’s maybe floundering because they have no idea about where their focus should be because they’re trying different things just to try and find the right thing. Oh my gosh, I think you could help so many different coaches and/or professionals really be good at what they know how to do.
Doug Lawrie: It’s interesting because the PGA of Canada with their new professional development courses is allowing people to focus on specific things that they want to concentrate on. Kevin Thistle and I, when we were talking on one of my chats is he said, “Why would I need to know turf management if I’m going to be a golf coach?” Or “Why do I need to know about food and beverage if I’m going to be a teacher?” Or “If I’m going to be a pro shop guy, why do I need to know about the golf swing?” You could take it if you wanted to.
Doug Lawrie: But the really interesting part is now they’ve understood that if you want to be really good at something, we’re going to help you guys get there. I just think that there’s ways that they run in their lane for certain things that are on the masses. I think what I can bring in terms… Because I’ve done it with a bunch of other young people that I have mentored is the ability to focus on your strengths and be shown a roadmap, Peter, of how you can achieve it because you’ve got to pass and keep focused on this roadmap and not get detoured.
Peter Mumford: I’ve known you for a long time and we’ve talked off and on over the years but I’ve always got the impression that you were highly invested in learning and figuring out what makes you better so that you can be a better coach and whether it’s taking courses or, as you say, talking to other people or whatever.
Peter Mumford: A few weeks back, Brandel Chamblee got into some hot water after making some comments about PGA of America teachers who he felt were not improving who were not investing in their trade and were just following the same old, same old. Obviously, there was a lot of blowback from that but there were a number of people who came out and said, “Yeah, he’s right. We’re not improving. We’re just recycling the same old stuff.” What’s your take on that?
Doug Lawrie: He is Mr. Controversy. He likes saying whatever he feels is on his mind and I think he gets paid because of that. I think that’s why he still has a job. I think this is why he is who he is. He probably has more people blocked on Twitter than anybody else on the face of the planet. But the reason he says this stuff is because there has to be some truth to it. I’m not giving him props for it but I think that’s your own damn fault.
Doug Lawrie: When I say that, look, you could take 10 golf pros… Generally, you’re going to look at this. This is a very poor cross section but you can say two are really good, eight are really meh. Of the two that are really good, one of them is lazy. You really got to look at it from the standpoint of when you are making yourself a better coach and what he was referring to is that we all thought that the set of things that they brought forward was we all took this instruction and that’s the Bible. That’s what we learn from and nothing else matters.
Doug Lawrie: It’s really an interesting debate right now in golf because often you have these coaches and Jim McLean made the best… I think he made the quote of the best line. He goes, “I think we have a lot of coaches who feel they have a messiah complex. They’re the Great Savior. ‘I’ve got the best way to swing a golf club. It’s this way.'”
Doug Lawrie: The really interesting thing that I learned very early on about golf instruction, it’s opinion based because everybody has their opinion about what they feel is the most important part of the golf swing or how the golf swing should be moved. With all this 3D and technology that is out there nowadays, the golf swing has been torn apart and put back together but realistically do we start renaming it and giving it different terminology that it’s been doing already. I don’t know if that would make it any better. The small percentage of people that might be able to understand that and/or decipher it is so small.
Doug Lawrie: I really think it boils down to the fact that if you’re going to get better, you have to go search it. You have to go watch people teach, you have to dig in the trenches. Young coaches, I think, are very technical oriented and they think that’s going to be their salvation and that’s going to make them a great coach. I really, truly believe because when I started teaching golf it was all about the communications. I didn’t even have video. But when we get now… Because I’ve been able to deduce things through evolution now, this technology is actually easier for me to use, to help see all the problems. You need a good eye.
Doug Lawrie: I really think that there’s certain ways that people need to go and experience and teach without technology, to get better at communication, get better at understanding and figuring out what’s going on based on what they see not what the machine tells you.
Doug Lawrie: It’s a really interesting debate. I would give maybe 10% on that for Brandel but I’m not a big fan. Realistically speaking, I said, “If you want to be a better coach, you got to go search it out yourself and if you don’t want to, hey, that’s your prerogative. You can just sit there and just give out those lessons as you want.”
Peter Mumford: In the old days, if somebody was struggling with their game, they’d say, “I’m going to go take a lesson.” These days they say, “I’m going to go talk to my coach.” Is there a real difference between the two? Has the profession changed that much that… I guess coaching is maybe a longer term relationship with somebody as opposed to instruction which could be just a one off.
Doug Lawrie: This is a bit of a hot button for me. By this, I said that term coach is widely used and I think unless you’ve been… Technically, everybody in the PGA of Canada who does CNC which is coaching new competitors. That is a program that has been developed through the coaching federation of Canada and it’s certified by coach.ca. You actually are passing levels of coach.ca that give you the opportunity and to be trained as a coach. If you’ve never done any of this stuff, I don’t know how you can call yourself a coach.
Doug Lawrie: But the really interesting thing is it’s often used and that’s really interesting because there’s instructors, there’s teachers, and there’s coaches. My friend, Brady Riggs, in California, I asked him this question. I said, “What’s the difference between a teacher and a coach?” And he said, “The coach is all about performance. The teacher is about the mechanics.” I thought that was probably one of the really best ways to put it.
Doug Lawrie: If you’re going to go see a teacher or an instructor, they’re going to teach you about a theory. They’re going to teach you about mechanics. They’re going to teach you about things. The coach is going to take you out and show you how to use those things to perform better, is going to help you increase your performance because you’re going to become a better golfer.
Doug Lawrie: I really think that if you are just helping people’s golf swings get better and you’re not going out and spending time with them or monitoring their progress or helping them understand how to think better on the golf course or eat better or workout or any of this, you’re just a teacher. You’re not a coach. A coach is someone that is all about the performance of that player rather than just helping them get better.
Peter Mumford: I think in the old days we used to call that a playing lesson. But now it’s gone I think beyond that because it’s not just a playing lesson. It’s an involvement over the course of a season or many seasons and the off season, too, because as you say you’re working on fitness and nutrition and all of the things to get you ready for the next time you play or next time you perform.
Doug Lawrie: It’s a very interesting point. I spoke with a young man by the name of… Oh my gosh, I’m having a real… I can’t remember his name. But Joe Schuchat is the agent for Victor Perez. Victor Perez, 18 months ago, was number 400 in the world. He’s from France, six foot six, European Tour player was playing on the challenge tour and came second in the challenge tour and got to the European Tour. In 18 months, he’s gone from 400 to 40th in the world.
Doug Lawrie: At the TPC Sawgrass at The PLAYERS Championship first round, he was 300 par and then they canceled it. He was shaping up to have a really great year and he was going to the masters and all that stuff. The really interesting thing though is I asked Joe. I said, “What makes the difference? Why is he so different?” And it’s the details. You’re talking a little bit about this. It’s tracking their data. This is something that has not been done.
Doug Lawrie: Hey, strokes gained in putting, strokes gained, and fairways hit, do you get… Strokes gained bombing at 320 versus trying to hit a fairway and carving it out of the rough. Hitting it at a pin versus hitting it 10 feet right to the pin to have a better chance. Taking a shotgun approach to your approach shots versus a laser beam sniper look.
Doug Lawrie: There’s so much different stuff out there nowadays to track your data, to see how you can improve your game. Derek Ingram and Tristan talk about these players on the national team getting 0.25 of a percentage point better. To them, that’s huge in strokes and huge in how they get better.
Doug Lawrie: When you look at what it’s become, it’s become a lot more scientific at the highest level of golf. It’s becoming how are you gaining your strokes and it’s like you have to understand there as a coach of juniors, parents look at that and go, “Wow. Hey, my kid missed eight fairways but shot even par.” Why do you do that? You have to go back and look at it.
Doug Lawrie: Then there’s the other side. People go, “Oh, I have to keep track of my putting?” Yeah, why are we going to the driving range if you can’t even have 40 putts in the tournament?
Doug Lawrie: It’s a really interesting way that you have to be so much aware of this and as the evolution of competitive golf goes, it’s really about understanding that how do you get somebody into a good competitive program or how do you get somebody into a recreational program. I really think it’s a super important thing as the coach and not just the instructors that you try to help people understand how to love this game for their life and juniors.
Doug Lawrie: I have some kids who don’t play tournaments. I have some kids that all they do is play tournaments. It’s super important that there’s a good understanding about their expectations because their expectations can be awfully too high because they compare themselves with the guys on the PGA Tour. This is one of my favorite questions to ask them. What is the average distance from the hole from 100 yards on the PGA Tour? Can either of you guys guess?
Peter Mumford: Yards or feet?
Doug Lawrie: Average distance in feet?
Peter Mumford: 20 feet.
Doug Lawrie: Okay. How about you, Jay?
Jason Fairfield: Hold on. Are we talking on the green?
Doug Lawrie: Yeah, average distance from the hole when you’re faced from 100 yards in so it’s a 100-yard shot.
Jason Fairfield: From the PGA person, 100 yards in?
Doug Lawrie: PGA Tour Pro, what’s the average foot distance?
Jason Fairfield: 16 feet.
Doug Lawrie: 16 feet. Split the two of you, it’s 18. If you ask a junior, they think it’s five because they only see the guys on tour who hit it that close and they show those really good shots. But the average is 18 feet. I said that six steps and they get to step it off and I go, “That’s pretty close.” They go, “Yeah.” Then, “Why do you get pissed off when you have a wedge in your hand and you hit it to 20 feet and you feel like you’ve failed?” They’re like, “Oh.” Some say, “Well, I should hit it closer.” If you do, then you have to work at it to hit it closer.
Doug Lawrie: Your expectations can’t be that you’re just going to hit it closer. Because they have it misconstrued based on TV and showing the best of the best that you should always hit it that close. So what happens is their expectations get up here and you really have to keep them down here. That’s a big art form to be able to do that.
Jason Fairfield: Do you guys mind if I shift gears a little?
Peter Mumford: No.
Jason Fairfield: I want to go two things, Doug, go back into a bit of your history before you came into it and I also want to tie it into what the conversations that Peter and I run into on a daily basis when it comes into the business of golf marketing and sales because you said something interesting in your last statement there being laser focused.
Jason Fairfield: Some guys being all over the place. We find that in business. I don’t know if it was either one of you guys, but I told… It might have been Peter the other day about… Actually, no, it might have been you, Doug, where I was talking about a guy… No, it was Peter. Talking about a company they do just over a million dollars and we go in and ask questions like you do as, Doug, setting their objectives, but finding out what’s the product that you sell the most? The guy was like, “Oh, I think it’s this.”
Jason Fairfield: When we do some research what he thought and what the real number were completely different and he’s focused on the wrong thing and he wonder why his business is going like this.
Jason Fairfield: I’m going to go back to… Again, whether people know that’s listening to this or not, when you got in the golf industry, working at Glen Abbey, Trafalgar, there’s all those different things but to the point where it’s taken to you now where I said this to your daughter in a conversation because you asked me to have this with her a couple of months ago. I said, “Your dad hasn’t had a paycheck from somebody in like 10 plus years.” She blew her mind when she went, “Oh my god, he really hasn’t to go [inaudible 00:36:09]. He created his own paycheck.”
Jason Fairfield: What I want to get in the business of how you’ve created this. How are you creating attention for yourself? That’s my first question. And then what has been the biggest and best mistakes that you’ve made as a small business owner? Where have you done…
Jason Fairfield: Again, I know who your accountant is, I know where you struggle on certain things. I have some insight information on this and so I’m setting it up by where have you struggled? Where do you succeed? I have my own opinion from seeing you from a distance but how are you creating attention for yourself over the years? Again, because your business can be like this. [crosstalk 00:36:48] Let’s talk the business wise that way.
Doug Lawrie: I’ll tell you. I never thought I’d be a full time teaching professional but it was getting fired in February 2010. They put me on my doorstep with nothing but my stuff from my office and I had to figure out how to make a living. One of the things Peter alluded to is I’m always wanting to learn but I’m always hustling. I always want… I think it comes from a fear of going to fail my family and not provide because I’ve been the main provider for my family. A little bit of panic motivation right there. I remember the phone call with you.
Doug Lawrie: But the one thing that you have done and one of the things having you as my business advisor is… I remember you asking me this question in 2006 when we were working at BraeBen together is you asked me is, “What would you like to be doing?”
Doug Lawrie: I said, “I’d love to stand up in front of 2000 people and motivate them how to become better people and stuff like that.” It’s really funny because I have had the opportunity to do stuff like that, stand up in front of hundreds of people and tell my story about junior golf and how it’s become such a driving force in my life and made me a better person and also a better professional.
Doug Lawrie: It was because the minute I decided… This is very pointed. I took a U.S. Kids certification course to be trained in U.S. Kids and the one gentleman who ran that, John Godwin, him and John Bryan… John Godwin told me the story about how he just started teaching juniors and how he gave up teaching adults and how it was the best decision he ever made.
Doug Lawrie: I called him later that week after they left and we had about an hour and a half long chat and I was like, “Wow, that’s what I have to do.” It was probably the best business decision I’ve ever made by focusing just on kids primarily, like 90%. Sure, because I have such good relationships with other people and I’ve been coaching them. I still coach adults because it helps fill some of the holes when the kids aren’t there.
Doug Lawrie: But what happened was understanding that the appeal of my personality and the outgoing and how to get that in front of people, started doing some video lessons, started putting it up on my YouTube channel, writing some blog posts on my website.
Doug Lawrie: Now, you asked about challenges. When you get really busy coaching, you don’t get an opportunity to keep going on the business side. I was really stuck because my friend, Ryan Cater, had said to me. “Hey, Doug, you can run 10% of your business and 90% coaching or you can basically go 90% business and 10% coaching. You have to figure out what it is you want to do. I don’t think you can do 50/50.”
Doug Lawrie: That really hit home because I was like, “I know where Doug is best. Doug is not best behind the desk doing administrator. That is not my forte. That’s not where I really am amazing. I’m great standing up in front of everybody throwing up all over everybody.” What I did is I hired administrator for two years. I only had two administrators. It was probably both the best decision I made but also one of the more financially stupid decisions I made because I paid them probably too much money from what I got out of it.
Doug Lawrie: The second administrator, I would say she was by far a rock star and she really helped me because what she did is she believed in what I did. She helped grow the business. She helped grow me so that I didn’t have to take care of it. That was really a big relief. You have to be a little bit more smarter with your finances to be able to understand like, “This is what I can afford if you don’t want to do this.” I’ve made mistakes like that along the way.
Doug Lawrie: I think one of the other ones that was a necessity but I probably wasn’t the best negotiator was opening my indoor academy in Burlington. I converted two old squash courts in an indoor academy and for some reason couldn’t quite ask the question to say, “Look, I’m not going to be here in the summer. I shouldn’t have to pay rent in here but if you want to use the space you can.” “No, I had to pay rent all year round.” Financially not the best move.
Doug Lawrie: However, what that allowed me to do is be year round and that was an important part is that investment allowed me to be where I am today because I was able for three winters to coach indoors and coach continuously in the fringe seasons when it gets cold.
Doug Lawrie: It’s really super important to have because here in Canada when you’re not being able to coach in late October to December or late mid March to the end of April, you need a space just in case it isn’t nice out. You know what? Those are probably some of the best stories about trials and tribulations.
Doug Lawrie: Now, four years later, after working at a private club for the last four years as an independent contractor, my brand is very solid in terms of where I am in the hierarchy of golf coaches in junior golf coaches and the really cool part about that is now I’m being sought out by others for help advice and so on and so forth.
Doug Lawrie: I want to be able to take that and help them and I think that’s the next stage. The next stage of development of your business but it’s been 10 years and in the 10 years… People think I’ve been doing this for a long time and I’ve only really been doing it for 10 years and really gotten good at who I am probably the last five.
Doug Lawrie: I’m really excited because I know that what people don’t realize takes time, doing correct social media, because people often think I’m like… It’s funny this guy put out who should you follow on Instagram for social media for great stuff. A bunch of people put down Focus Golf Group. That is my company and having people follow me as a resource for social media is really cool.
Doug Lawrie: But what’s really interesting is I’m good, I’m not nearly as good as I could be. I think that’s where I could be so much better at being consistent on the processes similar to how you teach somebody something. They got to be consistent in their process on how they’re going to get better. You got to practice it, you got stay focused on it, and do what you’re really good at. I’m good at being able to do these things because I’ve learned it and I learned from the best being you, Jay. Hey, you’re one of the best, trust me.
Doug Lawrie: One of the best parts about it is that I truly think that taking those skills and being able to use it to then create even more great content is where this is going to go.
Jason Fairfield: I’m going to unpack something there. Again, Peter, to jump in on it as well, too, because we see this. You said something like you’ve been teaching for 10 years and I actually saw gentlemen do this a couple weeks ago and it was just one of the best answers I’ve ever seen. Unfortunately, he was talking about using a demonstration about income inequality.
Jason Fairfield: What he did was he went like this and I’m going to say it with your teaching experience and what you did was, let’s say this is the wealthiest guy in the world. This is a person who doesn’t have a nickel in their name. Let me give this example and then explain it to your end and how he explained it.
Jason Fairfield: He goes, “There’s layers to get to that part.” You just don’t go from, ‘I don’t have a nickel in your pocket to having worth a billion dollars. It’s impossible.’ I’ve gone through every single layer. I came to this country with $500 in my pocket. I had nothing. I was eating nothing. Then I got my first job and now I was making $20,000 a year and then from there, I got a better job that was making $50,000 a year and then from there, I ended up making more and more. With time and wisdom and learning consistently, I eventually have moved up every layer but you’re always in each layer.”
Jason Fairfield: I think, from your perspective, you said it may have only been 10 years of specific teaching but you started with BraeBen or whatever, teaching some lessons, and zero and then got my first student, and that student led to another thing. Oh, I lost that student. I went and did an interview like Peter would have interview on Fairways. It got you some more exposure. Oh, some people called me, you end up moving these layers.
Jason Fairfield: I think the difference between if somebody wants to do it quicker in 10 years is they have to be a better student. They’ve got to be better at the business of being a teacher. They’ve got to be able to compress all that things that you’ve done in 10 years if they want to try to do it in five years, but he’s still going to have to go through all those things. You can’t skip it.
Jason Fairfield: I always think there’s always these steps whether you go to Fairways and you go, “Can we do an article together? Or we can do a phone call together?” “I got to learn how to do my accounting.” “Hey, I got to learn to attract a student and not be a…” Rhymes with arsehole.
Jason Fairfield: You’ve got to figure all these things out. But at the end of the day, that 10 years is the 10 years of work. You cannot get past it. You can either just do it more quickly or do it [inaudible 00:46:21] or not more quickly, whatever. Do it quickly or not. That’s where I was picking out of your brain when you said that is maybe 10 years, but you can’t skip those steps. And I think-
Doug Lawrie: Oh, no.
Jason Fairfield: One of the big things and I’m going to pick Peter’s brain is that we’ll be talking to people that want to get there, whether it’s another golf instructor who’s asking Peter to go, “I’d like to do a listing on Fairways and doing which…” It’s part of that process or, “Doug, can I pick your brain?” You have to do those things. It’s just how consistently will he go and do that and more importantly is how… This is my biggest one, when will you stick up your hand and ask for help. You can’t do it yourself. It’s impossible. Nobody’s been able to make it from zero to those 10 years without calling the Peter Mumfords of the world or talking to Doug, or-
Doug Lawrie: Talking to you.
Jason Fairfield: You can’t do that. So I just say learn it quick that you need help from people. Go find the right people. You’re going to find out the ones that are not the greatest. As you said in the beginning, there’s some coaches that just want money and that’s fine. But then they lose the student and they go to somebody else. But you still got to do that. There’s no way of getting around that. Does that make sense?
Doug Lawrie: 100%, it does. I really think that the old cliché of it takes a village. You need to get a lot of people in your camp so that allows you to get to where you want to be. Those who think that they graduate out of college and they’ve been teaching for two years and stuff, they think they’re going to be directors of instruction. Well, no.
Doug Lawrie: A great example of someone who I think has done it in a very short period of time is a young man that is a very good friend of mine. He graduated from Niagara College and easily one of the top in his class and he sets himself aside from who he is both in character and also his desire to learn. He took zero property. He worked at Stratford Golf Club his whole life and he played in, got his card, and then he was given the opportunity to build an academy.
Doug Lawrie: When he finished up this year, he had an academy team of junior players. He had camps that ran both the two courses that were owned Listowel and Stratford. He was super busy with clinics and had built a revenue stream for the club that had not existed.
Doug Lawrie: Now, he has moved down to Whistle Bear and he’s pretty much going to be looking after a lot of the programming and everything at the Ontario Golf Academy, which is the [inaudible 00:49:00] academy for Whistle Bear and it’s because he’s never stopped learning. He always asked questions. He’s always looking at stuff. But he’s… You know what? This is why he is going to be so successful.
Doug Lawrie: He’s only 25. He’s been doing it in a very condensed time but he himself will tell you, “I don’t know everything.” But he’s always… He is gaining information at an exponential rate because he has been given those opportunities. He doesn’t sit there bitching, complaining about the money. Doesn’t bitch and complain about students. He may have little… He’ll come up with ideas. He’ll call me. I’ll be like, “Okay, I’ll play devil’s advocate and throw it back and forth at him.”
Doug Lawrie: He’s always teachable-coachable. Great line that taught me way back when and being teachable-coachable, I think if you need to take a look at yourself and be self aware of are you teachable-coachable? Because if you’re teachable-coachable, then you can take your five-year plan, not many will plan out their five-year plan on where they want to be but if they do, it’s going to help them so much better just like a junior golfer. What’s your tournament plan look like? What is your two-year plan look like to get you a golf scholarship? What does the coach plan look like to get them to where they want to be?
Doug Lawrie: Matt Wilson is now the new director of instruction at Baltusrol. Gone from Henry Brunton California. Golf Canada running their next generation in the junior national team. Now, he’s the director of instruction at one of the top golf clubs in the country. It’s how are you going to get there and how are you always getting better. It’s a constant thing. You need to always keep working at yourself.
Jason Fairfield: Would you say one of your… Again, between if you had to give guys whether it’s a coach or somebody coming out of, you said, Niagara College, which doesn’t have that program anymore as far as I know, but the best thing in terms for them to try to create awareness for themselves, that they exist as an instructor besides some of the, let’s call it, the social tools.
Jason Fairfield: Do you not think these guys should be looking at the… Again, I’m tooting Peter’s horn because he’s been around forever. The Fairways of the side that they shouldn’t be trying to figure out ways of… Again, I’m trying to figure out when you got attention-
Doug Lawrie: That’s a great point.
Jason Fairfield: You know what I mean. Like hey, if you want to get attention and create good attention, you can only do so much yourself. It comes back to your thing. Should you not be looking at talking to leaders in that industry whether it’s pay yourself or magazines or specific channels and trying to figure out how to work together? Wouldn’t you think that would be something that we…
Doug Lawrie: You know what? I think this is a really great question. The young instructors who want to be coaches and stuff, I think they are products of the internet. Everything is at their fingertips. They can take a message if they follow somebody on Instagram and they can reach out to somebody that they think is an amazing coach and they can ask them the question. Will they get back to them? If they do, wow, all of a sudden now there’s accessibility.
Doug Lawrie: Honestly, and truly and this is by no offense, it’s like I had this… Calling up Peter and saying, “Listen, you’ve been around this for a long time. Who do you think are the best people that I should go talk to?” Doesn’t even enter into their realm of possibility because of social media and the connections that are so instant for this generation. I really think it… I had a conversation with John White down in Niagara and John said to me, very exasperated, saying, “Why are these guys not asking me for help? Why are they not letting me give them guidance?”
Doug Lawrie: I said, “John, the reason that they’re not is because in the relevance of instruction and in the relevance of getting better, you aren’t really relevant because at the moment, they can go online and find a whole lot of other people that are relevant to what they need. It’s quick and easy and simple and they don’t have to have a conversation with you and build that relationship. For them, it’s way easier to do that, to watch a video or a YouTube channel or a Instagram post and then go dive into it a little bit more down that rabbit hole.”
Doug Lawrie: I think that just shows the evolution of how these young younger people are learning and the generations are learning because in the past you would have to go search out those pros and go ask guidance and be mentored by them.
Doug Lawrie: Now, I can sit here on my computer and look up somebody. Athletic Motion Golf, I can go watch a whole lot of their videos from their gear system about how the body works and think I’m amazing coach because I’m going to learn all the stuff that they’ve been putting on there. It’s a little different way that this is happening nowadays. The connection and the relationship building, I think, is a little bit construed because I think too many people rely on the social media connection they think that their friends.
Jason Fairfield: Got you. Any other thing on there, Pete, that you’re thinking about?
Peter Mumford: Jumping back a little bit to what Doug was talking about before getting better and learning. You can equate it to anybody’s golf game. They progress to a certain point but then they stop. Maybe they get down into single digit handicap or they get to another level that they’re happy with. They’re breaking 90, they’re breaking 80, whatever it is, but they’re not prepared to invest the time and effort in figuring out how to get to that next level.
Peter Mumford: You talked about the guys going from being paupers to billionaires. Every level you go through, it’s not automatic. Everybody doesn’t get there. They have to invest some time and effort in learning how to achieve the next step or whatever. It’s no different, I think, probably, Doug, in coaching and getting better as a coach. Some people are just going to stop at a certain point and they’re going to say, “You know what? I’ve learned enough. I’m happy here.” or “I’m too lazy,” or whatever it is. They’re just not prepared to make that effort to go the next little bit and get to the next level.
Doug Lawrie: I agree. It’s an interesting point because staying relevant and staying current is essential for a coach. You have to have a better understanding of what these juniors want because again, we’re dealing with a 21st century athlete has way more anxiety and way more fear and way more distractions than they’ve ever had ever.
Doug Lawrie: If you have a junior who doesn’t feel like their swing is getting where it should be, then they are going to turn to somebody else and go online or their parent is going to go online and go research something and think, “Oh, okay. They can be…” Look at [inaudible 00:56:32] and go, “Well, they should be doing it like this.” Worst thing ever. Worst thing ever. Because that says that what the coach is not… It’s trusting the process and not relying on the person that has got you to where you are. It’s a very slippery slope that I think as a coach… I’m always trying to do my best for my students because my kids… Because I’m always invested in them and I always want the best for them. I think that comes across in how I care for them.
Doug Lawrie: If someone decides that they think they need to go somebody else and go take their child to another coach, well, you know what? I can’t stop them. Invariably, the parent’s always driving the bus until the kid gets old enough that they can make their decisions.
Doug Lawrie: It’s a very interesting point. But I think if you are constantly doing things to help your charges, your juniors become the very best that they want to be and engage them and they want to go and see you, then you’re going to keep doing really good stuff. Add in a smart business sense and better understanding about how you do your business and you’re just going to have a constant business year round. That’s the best part about it is if you do this right and you do it for the right reasons and you do it smartly, you can build yourself a revenue stream for years to come and you do it organically and very much with a good character and good heart.
Peter Mumford: I think that… Just to draw a parallel with another industry. Take a doctor who is constantly reading up the latest medical journals and studying up on the latest diseases as opposed to one who doesn’t bother with any of that stuff.
Peter Mumford: Which doctor do you want to go to? It’s like the guy that says, “Coronavirus? What’s that?” You need the guy that’s right on top of his game. I think when it comes to creating awareness, that’s something that probably has to be right at the forefront of what you’re pitching or what you’re making people aware of is that you’re a guy that is right at the forefront of his profession and he’s getting results and you can demonstrate those results with the students that you’ve had, the success that they’ve had, and so on.
Doug Lawrie: I appreciate that. Thank you, Peter.
Jason Fairfield: There’s a line. I can’t remember who taught it to me which was nobody will open up their wallet until they give up their time and normally, nobody will give up their time until they learn they like to trust you. I always find it weird as you said if a guy is money hungry or he’s got a personality that doesn’t mesh with a parent or junior or again, it’s just two adults from the teaching perspective, they’re not going to give up any more time to you because you rubbed them the wrong way and guess what? That correlated will not open up their wallet.
Jason Fairfield: I always think that… One of the biggest things that you need to do is you better be good with people, you better be able to read people, and if you are stuck in that little world where you think you can do only thing in that online perspective. Eventually, there’s always going to be offline and you better have to be learned those people’s skills. That will be your biggest… Again, I’m tooting Doug’s horn here just because I’ve known him way too long is that his…
Jason Fairfield: One of the reasons he is where he is… One of his superpowers is he is excellent with people. That is his thing. The fact that he teaches a person to hit a white ball from point A to point B, it just happens to be the fact that he’s a really good person and they want to stick around with them. He makes them feel well. Whereas that old saying is that everybody’s got a card on their head that says, “Make me feel well,” or “Make me feel good about myself.” That’s why he does what he does.
Jason Fairfield: I think you come back to that. If you don’t do that first and then if you suck at the actual principles of trading attention for yourself on an ongoing basis, then you suck. If you’re not good at the actual principles of running a business, you better find people to help you do those things or mentors or coaches, whatever it may be, so that you can do the skill that you want to do beyond to them on a daily basis. You remove those top things your business will stink in about two seconds.
Peter Mumford: I think there’s a… I’ll put a slightly different spin on it what you said there, Jay. There’s a saying that says, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.” Doug, I know you care a lot about your kids and that comes through and everything you do. Speak to that a little bit. Because you’ve got a great deal of empathy with your kids and I think it shows in the results. But you can obviously tell us about it.
Doug Lawrie: It’s interesting. I often think that we’re not in the golf business. We’re in the relationship business. The fact that I get to build relationships with kids is… I’ve had… Some of my kids… Actually, two brothers just, Beni and Alex Long, they’re in Florida right now in Sarasota and they actually played the Manatee Junior. Beni’s 15, Alex’s 13. I’ve been coaching them for seven years. It’s really a testament of the fact that I know these boys. I’ve watched them grow up. There’s a bunch of the kids that I’ve coached that have watched them grow from not even wanting to play in a golf tournament to now being like the Ontario Bantam champion last year.
Doug Lawrie: The really cool part about this whole thing is that it’s… Remembering their birthdays, remembering to celebrate their efforts, to ask them what they’re doing, ask them how their school… What’s new in school, ask them how their dog is, what’s… Various things that they’ve done. What it does is it just makes them want to be around, like Jay said, me because. Their egos and their personalities and making them feel safe to be themselves.
Doug Lawrie: I remember I was playing actually just when I said we went out and played at March Break, I was playing with a couple of kids and the one kid asked me. He goes, “How’d you get so good as a junior coach?” I said, “Hard work. But I think the reason why I’m a great junior coach it goes beyond just X’s and O’s and being able to get you to hit a golf ball better.”
Doug Lawrie: I pointed out another kid in the group and I said, “It’s the relationships here. It’s the fact that Kevin and I, we’ve gone to Florida on a plane together and his dad feels confident enough to allow me to take him with me and he feels like I care about him like he’s my kid. That’s it exactly. It’s the relationship.”
Doug Lawrie: Kevin lives in Markham. He lives all the way up by Emerald Hills Golf Club, and he comes all the way to Credit Valley for me. He came all the way to Credit Valley for me. It’s one of those things. When you have these relationships, you get kids coming from Fergus, Niagara Falls, Markham, London, Newmarket, it’s not just because I’m the best junior golf coach on the planet, it’s because I create these relationships with them that make them want to go back because they’re getting better, but they also walk away feeling super pumped.
Doug Lawrie: That’s part of the reason. You have to realize you need to pump up these tires so that they feel they can stay floating and go work at it and come back and let’s go work on some more stuff.
Doug Lawrie: It’s such a process and really, honestly, and truly, kids are the future of this game. The more kids you can turn on to this game they can play for the rest of their lives and who knows, maybe somebody will get inspired enough to walk into my big size 14s.
Jason Fairfield: Hey, Pete. Imagine what Dough just said where he says, “I’m pumping up by making the guy want to hang around with me.” Imagine if a bunch of the golf courses that we talked to spend that much time and energy with their specific golfers all the time, you would have golfers want to come back over and over again if they got philosophy instead of using them as a one and done.
Peter Mumford: How do we bottle that up and sell it as a pill?
Jason Fairfield: 100%. What you said is so valuable but again that’s what I meant if you could put a pill on that I think that’s… To me I just think between the three of us at minimum we all grew up with that common sense is like, treat the guy beside you pretty well. You want to be a very nice person that person wants to be around.
Jason Fairfield: There’s just good karma and then for some reason people come into business whether it’s junior golf or you’re running a golf course or you’re running a hair salon, I don’t care, but for some reason they just next person in, next person get in the chair, next person in the till. You ran a golf course, Doug. Imagine running back in the day running BraeBen where next person in the till. Next person in the till.
Doug Lawrie: Actually, you bring that up. That’s really funny you should say that because, Jay, one of the programs that you and I came up with when we were at BraeBen was exactly that. We called it The Influencer Program.
Doug Lawrie: We own the golf carts. The golf carts were bought for and paid. We would obviously rent out the golf carts. But what we did is we went to five of the best customers that we knew were coming to the golf course all the time every week. We went to them and gave them an influencer card and said, “Bring this card in. It entitles you to either free golf carts for your foursome and you pay the regular green fee.” Or “You pay a discounted rate.” Basically, it was a twilight rate, “And your buddies pay their regular green fees and carts and you pay a different rate for the person who’s the influencer.”
Doug Lawrie: Almost to a person, they all took the free golf carts. The golf carts had already been bought and paid for but the really cool part was the green fees. We were getting a full pop. We weren’t giving it away at a discount. What actually happened that year combined with a couple other things we spent 16 grand in marketing dollars to get $72,000 worth of revenue.
Doug Lawrie: I think that’s a pretty good ROI on programs that recognize these guys. “I got the influencer card. I can come in and play and I’m feeling like I’m being treated really well.” It’s not unlike a kid who I treat really well and get better at golf and enjoy being around and get silly and goofy and play some games and make them feel really great that they want to come back and do more lessons. It’s exactly the same.
Doug Lawrie: It’s not very hard. It’s just really funny because a lot of people don’t realize if you make your customers feel great, you’re always going to get them to come back.
Jason Fairfield: Again, you said-
Peter Mumford: Sorry Jay, I just paused recording for a minute because we’ve run past our allotted time. We’re going to pick it up with Doug at another time. I’ve got a whole bunch more questions about some of the success he’s had with his juniors and I know Jay will have lots more questions too.
Peter Mumford: Jay, thanks for co-hosting with me again this morning and, Doug, thanks for being a guest on The Fairway Show. I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Doug Lawrie: Yeah, guys, that was great.
Jason Fairfield: Thanks, boys.
Peter Mumford: Bye for now.
Doug Lawrie: Thank you very much.
Jason Fairfield: All right.
Doug Lawrie: Cool.